Why Internet Culture Is No Longer a Side Story
The Internet’s Dark Blueprint—and How to Navigate It
Why Internet Culture Is No Longer a Side Story
For years, internet culture was treated as a secondary subject: something happening on message boards, social platforms, meme pages, and comment sections while the “real world” continued elsewhere.
That distinction no longer works.
Online systems influence political movements, hiring, advertising, activism, identity, education, journalism, and public trust. A forum decision can shape political language. A viral post can affect employment. A creator’s comment section can become a workplace risk. An algorithm can determine which version of reality reaches millions of people.
In this episode of Network Issues, media scholar Jamie Cohen and marketing strategist Destinee Day explore why internet studies and critical internet literacy are essential for navigating modern life.
What Triggered This Conversation?
The episode begins with the January 2026 release of millions of additional records related to Jeffrey Epstein.
One newly publicized exchange showed that Epstein encountered Christopher Poole, the founder of 4chan, around the time Poole launched the site’s politically focused /pol/ board.
The timing was unsettling because /pol/ later became influential in far-right meme culture, online harassment, white-supremacist discourse, and political propaganda.
However, timing is not evidence of direction or causation.
Poole told The Verge that the decision to create the board had been made weeks earlier and that /pol/ went online before his first chance encounter with Epstein. The released material confirms contact, but it does not prove that Epstein proposed, funded, or guided the board.
The responsible conclusion is:
The records reveal an unexpected connection between powerful people and early internet figures. They do not establish that Epstein created or directed /pol/.
The distinction between documented evidence and inference is itself an example of critical internet literacy.
What Is Internet Studies?
Internet studies examines how online technologies interact with culture, politics, economics, identity, labor, art, activism, and everyday life.
It is not simply learning how to use social media or build a website.
Internet studies asks:
Who built the platform?
What behavior does its design encourage?
Who owns the infrastructure?
How do online communities form?
How does information move?
Which groups receive power or visibility?
How do memes shape political language?
What happens when online behavior affects offline institutions?
How do business models influence participation?
The field treats the internet as a social environment rather than a neutral collection of tools.
Why Did the Arab Spring Matter to Internet Studies?
The 2010–2011 Arab uprisings demonstrated how networked media could help people document events, exchange information, organize demonstrations, and communicate beyond state-controlled channels.
Mohamed Bouazizi’s self-immolation in Tunisia became a catalyst for protests that spread across the region. Social media did not independently create the uprisings, which grew from longstanding political, social, and economic grievances.
It did help information and organizing practices move rapidly between people and across national borders.
The lesson was not:
Facebook caused a revolution.
It was:
Digital communication had become part of the infrastructure through which activism, journalism, and political identity operated.
How Did Online Activism Change After 2011?
The same systems that support organizing can also support:
Harassment
Extremist recruitment
Propaganda
Surveillance
Disinformation
Political manipulation
Counter-movements
Occupy Wall Street adopted tactics and visual language associated with international protest movements. During roughly the same period, politically oriented communities on 4chan developed their own forms of identity, coordination, and meme distribution.
Online activism was never owned exclusively by one political ideology.
A tactic that helps one movement organize can be studied, copied, and repurposed by another.
Why Is Critical Internet Literacy Different From Digital Skill?
A person can be highly skilled online without being critically literate.
They may know how to:
Edit video
Build a website
Run advertisements
Grow an account
Use analytics
Create memes
Optimize search
Generate content with AI
Critical literacy asks a different set of questions:
What system am I participating in?
Who benefits from my behavior?
What assumptions are built into the platform?
What evidence supports this claim?
Am I seeing organic activity or coordinated influence?
What are the social consequences of this tactic?
Does success for the metric also mean success for the community?
Technical proficiency explains how to use a system.
Critical literacy helps someone decide how—and whether—to use it responsibly.
Is Online Life Separate From Real Life?
No.
The phrase “online versus real life” suggests that digital behavior is less consequential or less authentic.
Modern online activity can affect:
Employment
Relationships
Elections
Education
Housing
Safety
Reputation
Consumer choices
Mental health
Professional opportunities
A post may be digital, but the person posting it, the audience receiving it, and the consequences that follow are real.
The more useful distinction is between different contexts—not between a “fake” online world and a “real” physical one.
What Is a Personal Brand?
A personal brand is the recognizable set of signals through which other people understand someone’s identity, expertise, values, and professional role.
Those signals may include:
Topics
Tone
Visual style
Biography
Professional history
Public opinions
Work samples
Social posts
Interviews
Comments
Associations
Repeated behaviors
Personal branding does not require turning an entire life into content.
It means recognizing that audiences and employers form impressions from repeated public signals.
Why Does Personal Branding Matter to Young Professionals?
Employers, clients, collaborators, and admissions teams may review publicly available material.
They may encounter:
LinkedIn profiles
Public Instagram or TikTok accounts
Portfolio sites
Articles
Podcast appearances
Comments
Tagged photographs
Search results
Old usernames
This creates a difficult balance.
Young people need room to experiment, develop politically, make mistakes, and express themselves. They also enter a professional environment where public communication may be associated with an employer or client.
The goal should not be perfect lifelong self-censorship.
It should be enough awareness to understand:
Which spaces are public
Who may see a post
What context may disappear
Whether the content represents current values
How a post connects with a professional role
Are Employees Always Representing Their Employers?
Not in every situation.
People have personal identities, beliefs, relationships, and lives outside work.
However, employers may establish lawful social-media or conduct policies, especially when an employee:
Speaks officially for the organization
Uses company accounts
Identifies themselves prominently with the employer
Discloses confidential information
Harasses coworkers or customers
Makes discriminatory statements
Creates a foreseeable reputational or legal risk
The exact legal boundaries depend on jurisdiction, contract, labor protections, workplace policy, and the speech involved.
A practical professional question is:
Could a reasonable viewer believe I am speaking for the organization?
If the answer may be yes, additional care is appropriate.
How Should Brands Handle Negative Comments?
Not every critical comment should be deleted.
Criticism can reveal:
Customer-service problems
Confusing messaging
Product concerns
Legitimate disagreement
Useful questions
Moderation becomes appropriate when comments include:
Threats
Harassment
Slurs
Doxxing
Spam
Impersonation
Repeated disruption
Irrelevant attacks on appearance
Content intended only to derail discussion
Destinee’s approach is to distinguish disagreement from abuse.
A critical comment may deserve an answer. A degrading personal attack does not automatically deserve space on a brand’s page.
Moderation is not the same as government censorship. A brand or creator is managing a specific community and deciding which contributions move its conversation forward.
Should Creators Stay Out of the Comments?
For some people, yes.
Comments can provide feedback and community, but they can also distort a creator’s sense of scale and self-worth.
A practical approach is to:
Establish moderation rules
Delegate comments when possible
Check them at scheduled times
Avoid reading immediately after publishing
Respond only when useful
Block repeat abusers
Separate performance feedback from personal attacks
Preserve evidence of credible threats
Developing a “thick skin” should not mean tolerating harassment.
It means learning which voices deserve influence over your decisions.
What Is Panoptic Content?
Panoptic content describes media in which people become visible through someone else’s camera, post, or framing rather than their own.
A person may appear:
In the background of a video
In a friend’s photograph
At a public event
In a livestream
Inside a viral clip
Through a security camera
In a stranger’s travel post
The subject may not control the recording, caption, edit, or interpretation.
This complicates personal branding because identity is no longer created only through content a person intentionally publishes.
Awareness is useful, but permanent self-surveillance is not a healthy solution. People should not have to perform professional perfection every moment they are outside their homes.
How Do Brand Guidelines Affect Creativity?
Brand guidelines establish boundaries involving:
Tone
Values
Audience
Visual identity
Legal restrictions
Claims
Safety
Confidentiality
Accessibility
Young creators may initially experience those boundaries as restrictive.
Destinee argues that professional creativity often happens inside constraints. The challenge is finding a new and compelling expression that still represents the organization accurately.
A post receiving attention does not automatically mean it was successful.
It may generate engagement while violating the brand’s purpose, alienating its audience, or creating unnecessary legal exposure.
Can Someone Be Authentic and Professional?
Yes.
Professionalism does not require eliminating humor, personality, politics, emotion, or individuality.
It requires judgment about context.
A useful three-part test is:
Is it true to me?
Is it appropriate for this audience and setting?
Am I prepared for it to circulate without the original context?
Authenticity without judgment can become impulsivity.
Professionalism without personality can become empty performance.
A sustainable public identity needs both.
What Should Students Learn About Digital Responsibility?
Digital-responsibility education should include more than warnings that “the internet is forever.”
Students need to understand:
Algorithms
Privacy
Employment
Comment moderation
Online harassment
Search results
Brand representation
Context collapse
AI-generated media
Impersonation
Digital activism
Political manipulation
Community building
Evidence verification
Young people should also know that an early mistake does not have to define their entire life.
Education should create agency, not permanent fear.
How Can People Avoid Becoming Conspiracy Theorists?
Internet research often exposes hidden relationships, coordinated campaigns, financial incentives, and surprising institutional connections.
That can make every coincidence feel intentional.
A critical method separates:
Documented fact
What does the evidence directly establish?
Reasonable inference
What explanation is supported but not proven?
Open question
What information remains unavailable?
Speculation
What claim is possible but currently unsupported?
In the /pol/ example, the meeting is documented. The timing is notable. Direct influence is not established.
Maintaining that distinction prevents legitimate investigation from becoming certainty without evidence.
Why Is Jamie Still Optimistic About the Internet?
The internet remains one of the most powerful collective communication systems ever created.
It can support:
Education
Community
Mutual aid
Creative work
Political participation
Independent publishing
Professional opportunity
Cross-cultural communication
Support for marginalized people
The fact that powerful or harmful actors use the internet does not erase its public value.
Critical literacy gives people a better chance of using it deliberately rather than following whatever incentives a platform places in front of them.
The goal is not to become naïve about the internet.
It is to become capable of participating without surrendering judgment.
The Network Issues Digital-Identity Check
Before publishing, commenting, or representing an organization, ask:
Who is the intended audience?
Am I speaking personally or professionally?
What context could disappear?
Does this fit the stated values of the brand?
Could this harm another person?
Is the claim supported by evidence?
Am I responding to criticism or feeding harassment?
Would I stand behind this after the emotional moment passes?
What does the platform gain from my reaction?
Does this contribution improve the conversation?
Key Takeaways
Internet culture is part of modern political, professional, and social infrastructure.
Newly released records show contact between Jeffrey Epstein and 4chan founder Christopher Poole around the launch of /pol/, but they do not prove Epstein directed its creation.
The Arab Spring demonstrated how digital communication could support activism without independently causing political upheaval.
Internet studies examines systems, power, culture, identity, and behavior—not only technology.
Digital skill and critical internet literacy are different.
Public online activity can affect employment and professional reputation.
Personal branding is built through repeated signals rather than one viral moment.
Moderation should distinguish legitimate criticism from harassment and disruption.
A person can appear in online content they did not create or control.
Brand guidelines can support rather than eliminate creativity.
Evidence, inference, open questions, and speculation should remain separate.
Critical engagement offers more agency than either blind trust or total cynicism.
Questions Answered in This Episode
What is internet studies?
Internet studies examines how online technologies interact with politics, culture, identity, economics, activism, labor, and everyday behavior.
Why is critical internet literacy important?
It helps people understand who built digital systems, what incentives shape them, how information travels, and how online participation creates real-world consequences.
Did Jeffrey Epstein cause 4chan to create /pol/?
There is no public evidence proving that. Released records show that Epstein and Christopher Poole encountered each other near the time of the board’s launch, but Poole says the board had been planned earlier and was already online before they met.
What is a personal brand?
A personal brand is the set of repeated public signals through which audiences understand someone’s identity, expertise, values, and professional role.
Should brands delete negative comments?
Not simply because they are negative. Brands should preserve legitimate criticism while moderating threats, harassment, spam, slurs, and disruptive personal attacks.
Can social-media posts affect employment?
Yes. Public posts may influence how employers assess judgment, fit, confidentiality, conduct, or reputation, although legal protections and workplace rules vary.
What is panoptic content?
Panoptic content is media in which a person becomes visible through someone else’s recording, edit, caption, or post rather than through content they intentionally published.
About the Hosts
Jamie Cohen
Jamie Cohen is a media scholar, professor, writer, and expert on internet culture, online extremism, memes, media literacy, and the manosphere.
Website: jamesncohen.com
Substack: New Media Homework
Destinee Day
Destinee Day is a marketing strategist and founder of Rudy & Company. Her work focuses on branding, digital strategy, communications, online influence, and responsible marketing.
Website: rudyandcompany.com
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Destinee Day (00:00.99)
All right, welcome back to the state of the internet. Jamie, it seems like you have a topic that you really want to talk about today. So let's jump right in.
Jamie (00:11.598)
Yeah, so I guess this is an appropriate title for this project because the state of the media has changed. The state of the internet has changed. Over the weekend, depending on when people are listening to this, over the weekend at the end of January, the most recent batch of Epstein files were released and it's become top news. So it's nothing I have to really update the listeners on at this point, but it is something that has changed the way that I've seen everything I've done for the last 15 years.
So there's something that came out in these files that when I read it, it caused me to stare at the wall for like a good 30 minutes. So I just want to tell you a little story that overlaps with our background when we worked together at our previous institutions. And part of the program that I co- I founded and then co-founded again, called New Media, which is an internet studies degree and how it was created and why it was created and
what repercussions that have on our present, because you and I both know many majors of this degree. And it's of fascinating that this degree is really based on what it means to really critically analyze the internet as it is a moving object, but also how it interacts with our real world experience. So I'm sure you know about the Epstein release, right, and all this?
Destinee Day (01:36.468)
loosely follow it only because I've been on a kick recently where the news is depressing. And if I take in too much of it, it causes me to like curl up into a ball and not want leave my house. So I
Jamie (01:52.652)
I think that's the appropriate response though.
Destinee Day (01:56.288)
I conceptually know that this happened. have seen like what pops up occasionally my my I curate my Instagram feed very intentionally So occasionally I see some things that pop up. So I know it was released. I know things were redacted I know weird things Are in there and I know that The internet has thoughts but I have
Jamie (02:21.038)
Yes, the internet has thoughts. That's a understatement of the week. So let me just take you back to 15 years ago right now. Okay, so this is the beginning of when I started to found this program. Okay, so I was at the time, and you and I have spoken about this before, because I was the director of digital media at Hofstra at that point. And the reason why I bring this up is because I need so much help with the same
technologies now that you're the expert in. And I've drifted further away from the good technology metrics, analytics, and all the things that make the internet actually operate. At the time, that was my real specialty. In 2011, as you know, it was far simpler. There was no algorithms to game as well. There were still ways of manipulating it. But right now, it's way different recipe for success than there is like
Destinee Day (03:15.366)
It was chronological, so you just had to scroll back in time.
Jamie (03:17.102)
Oh yeah, remember chronological feeds? Whereas when somebody posted something, you can actually scroll back and find it. Instead of now when you open Instagram and you see the best post ever, and then for some reason it refreshes and it disappears. And then you're like, who was that? Who posted that? 2011 is a fascinating year because the beginning of that year, that whole year is really a shift in the world, the entire world. And for those who may not remember it, but the end of 2010,
Destinee Day (03:22.869)
Yeah.
Destinee Day (03:28.959)
Yes.
Jamie (03:47.215)
Muhammad Bouazizi in Tunisia self-immolated, which ignited, to use that euphemism, ignited the Arab Spring. And so the spring of 2011, now 15 years ago, was the Arab Spring. And it was this moment where I think the internet got to see the effects of what activism plus internet work actually does. the one thing that I think when I was forming this major, so I was recruited over to the college,
to start a new media major. And there was basically a start with one class. We started with a class called Intro to New Media. And I wanted it to be framed around the idea of what are the effects, like the media effects of the internet and civic engagement. So this intro course kind of like used the Arab Spring as kind of its foundational material because on Facebook, so here's what happened. he's.
Muhammad Bouazizi self-immolates and aristocrats in Northern Tunisia basically uploaded to Facebook and ignite it. Now there's been events like this over and over again in autocratic regions, but this one in particular did something. It like changed everything. In the end, by the end of those three months, Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, and Libya had all been mired into civil war. Three of those four presidents had stepped down. And then the occupation of Tahrir Square happened, which...
by July of 2011, inspired adbusters to put out a post to say, now it's time to occupy Wall Street. And so that occupation model became like the next model for that. So I put together this class and it launched in the fall of 2011. And in that fall, something weird happened. And what weird happened was this terrible site called 4chan launched a portion
Destinee Day (05:37.289)
Yes.
Jamie (05:39.659)
of the site called SlashPoll. And that's for politically incorrect. And I always was like, man, this is gonna be problems, okay. Fortunately, I had a lot of good clear minded friends who were like, we should really focus on what this does because it almost acted, SlashPoll almost acted as if, my stomach just went, SlashPoll almost acted as if it was a mirror to the Occupy Wall Street movement because it was kind of like how the right, the far right,
was organizing far better with the succinct messaging than the left, was like doing multiple messages at once. And it was always an unanswered question of like, where did this come from? Like who is doing this? Is this organic? Does this happen? 2011 is also the year where the term influencer started being used. Like that's, it was never real. It was used since the 1600s, but 2011 was the first time that it was used in terms of like social media, you know? So it was really that time where people were becoming like,
known as like these influencers, not creators, not partners, not producers, but influencers. And I always was like, wow, this is great. So the program was put together by we sent it to New York State, I created five courses, civic engagement, theory, practice coding, you know, I mixed the whole thing together, made a degree, you know, sent it to New York State, and it got approved like instantly. By 2013, it was a major. And as you know, it's still running.
Destinee Day (07:07.433)
Okay.
Jamie (07:07.842)
I've left that institution, but now it is a degree that dozens of people that you and I both now hold and have done their careers and do their thing.
Destinee Day (07:13.952)
Mm-hmm.
I specifically only hire students out of those programs intentionally because I know what they're taught, I know how valuable it is, and I know that they get it immediately.
Jamie (07:30.607)
Yeah, it is, it seemed like when somebody asked like if you're a social media manager or something, like, well, I do know what they learned. So it is, I do know of a better way of knowing which people to recommend to people who are hiring because it is like something that I'm like, oh, okay, that's great. So this is all to say this weekend or the weekend, the weekend of the FScene files release, there was one of these releases really broke my brain.
because as I'm going through it and learning a lot about how not to go in the weeds, because this isn't what this podcast is about, but it is a lot of like what type of manipulation has been going on in the world, who is really in charge, who gets to say things, like who gets to put their finger on the scales of change, you know? And one of these emails turns out that the day before SlashPoll was launched, Chris Poole, known as Moot, met with Jeffrey Epstein.
So when I learned this, I was like, no. Because this whole time it was an unanswered question. Who was behind the decision to do this? Because SlashPoll was a relaunch of the same forum several times over, but it was the first time where it was like, okay, we're going to do this the right way. And when I saw that I turned to the wall, just sort of stared at it for like 30 minutes because I was like,
now I know. That was the reaction that I kind of thought you'd get. And it was, it's been shocking because here's the overall line. And this is what I want to talk to you about for the next little bit, which is for the last 15 years, decade and a half, I feel like I've been consistently working on the idea of
teaching the side story. Like people are like, you're teaching the internet studies, you're teaching things that happen online, you're teaching things that are on the internet, not things that are like part or affecting everyday life. And I remember when slash polls influence became like really prominent in 2015. And I remember many believe it or not, I mean, you probably do believe it, but many of our students dwelt in that place quite often. And I was on a fair amount of group chats with students who were fascinated by the way it had influence on the world and in the
Jamie (09:52.611)
Pepe documentary feels good, man. actually shows that they believe, truly believe they were manifesting some sort of reality coming from that specific area, you know? And the whole time, I've always been told you're doing the side story, you're researching the side story. And now I know it's always been the main story. It's not the side story. This is what, we live in that world now. And to have that closure,
is still kind of infuriating. It is nice to know why it happened or most likely happened. But it is one of those things where it's like that confirmation was not pleasing to me. So what I'd love to talk to you about is like, why do we study internet studies and why should we like take it as seriously as we do? Like, and I want to hear it from your perspective where you're working on like the marketing metrics.
and promotions and I'm working on it the cultural studies side, but like, I really do think like what we're talking about is no longer like play stuff. Like we're actually talking about how the world works, you know, like I think we've all along been kind of told one thing, but now we unfortunately have confirmation we were right.
Destinee Day (11:03.68)
I'm sorry, I'm still upset.
Jamie (11:05.39)
Yeah!
Destinee Day (11:08.564)
it made me spiral into this. promise I was listening to you, but it was like, wait, what's real? Like, are we in, are we in the matrix? Like, where are we? and it's exactly what you, I don't know. Like that's how the world is run 100%.
Jamie (11:15.331)
Yeah.
Destinee Day (11:32.116)
By being online, are we exacerbating the problem?
because now I'm gonna cut all of it.
Jamie (11:44.726)
This is where I've been for the last week just so you know. Like I've been like, like blinking, like looking at walls, like, yeah, whether you cut this or not, it's like, this is, I, I have been, I've been struggling with this. This has been, this has been a time, like this is, I just want to, I can send you this. I don't think you took this photo, but.
Destinee Day (12:03.018)
Get up and leave.
Jamie (12:08.952)
There's baby me.
Destinee Day (12:10.656)
I'm pretty sure that was either early me or just before me.
Jamie (12:15.928)
Yeah, so you may have done that, but this is that propaganda photo in the hallway.
Destinee Day (12:19.774)
When I met you, your beard was much shorter.
Jamie (12:23.19)
This is, yeah, then this is before. So this is back when I had no beard, which is weird. Yeah. And one of the fascinating parts about this picture I just want to show is the screen there. You can see what I'm teaching. That is Andrew Arnheimer, the neo-Nazi known as Weave. And it was part of my first lesson because that was an article by Matthias Swerks in the New York Times in 2008 about the trolls among us.
Destinee Day (12:27.785)
Yeah.
Jamie (12:53.25)
And it was about how he, as a of a Cassandra, was like, this is an interesting coalition that's happening on the internet. And I just felt it was the right thing to teach students. Like, really felt like we couldn't, much of the chagrin, by the way, of many of the administrators and faculty I worked with who didn't believe we needed to inform them about these dark parts, I really felt like these dark parts are part of the internet and to send students out, especially ones who being trained to be social media managers, to be experts in the field.
to not inform them or equip them with the knowledge of how trolls operate would be a disservice. So I really felt that was there. And I've told you this before, and I'll tell you this again. I still to this day have a big fear of commenters, know? so it's as we all do. I mean, now we are not sure. mean, this is 2026 where commenters are probably bot farmed or bots, or just at least mimicked from bot areas. But like, it's still...
It's still a risk for young people. So it's like, now that we know that the foundation of the internet is this, that closure is real. Now we know it's structural. We know it's built in. Okay, we know that. But now how do we equip students with the ability to do this job, but also be aware that these dangers and these people are permanent inhabitants? How do we do this?
How do you do it? How do you help people? When you work with your clients, when you talk to them, how do you assure them or equip them with the metal to deal with that?
Destinee Day (14:33.056)
I it constantly. I say, stay out of the comments. Don't look at the comments. Keep doing what you're doing. Do not look at the comments. There's one guy that I work with a lot. I have no problem sharing his name. His name's Eric Emisberger. He's retired ATF. That in itself is polarizing, right? We live in a world where that reality is. I thought...
that we would get a lot of comments in that vein, especially what's going on in the world right now, especially the attitude toward federal agents. So I've always been like, stay out of the comments and he can handle that. You don't get to be at the level he was at without people spitting in your face and just having to walk away, right? Like that's a reality, he can take that. What he was unprepared for were the personal attacks on his appearance. And like, he's a tough guy.
And so that was the first phone call I got which was, what am I supposed to do? And I'm like, don't answer them, ignore them, stay out of the comments, let me handle the comments, that's my job. I will go in and deal with the comments. And if I have a question, I'll ask you, I'll respond. He's still in the comments every single day, but now he's developed. We've had enough success that the success outweighs whatever the online troll conversations are.
So he's focused here and I'm focused here and I respond to what I find to be valuable or something that would be worth having a conversation about. don't.
Jamie (16:00.942)
Mm-hmm.
Jamie (16:07.148)
What about people who don't aren't lucky to have you? Like, like this.
Destinee Day (16:10.602)
man You gotta develop the thick skin it sucks I'm going through it right now with my own stuff like posting my own things because I like like You know, I'm pushing you I'm pushing him. I'm pushing my clients like I have to take my own advice. So You just I find that if it's Unnecessarily violent
derogatory, things like that, I delete it and mark them as offensive. But that's the only time I do it. And that happens to me all the time on my dog's account, where if I post pictures of myself in my dog's account, people are really horrible to me. And there's been a couple of times that they've been outright derogatory and I delete those. And I just say to myself, how sad for this person.
Jamie (16:40.525)
Mm-hmm.
Destinee Day (17:05.19)
that that is the way that they get attention. But you have to develop a filter. There's no way about it. Like you just have to. And it's what I tell interns that I work with, it's the same as taking feedback at work, right? Like it's not meant to be personal. It's not meant to hurt your feelings, but you...
You have to see the tough side of it too. And you just have to be able to say, okay, that does not sit in a place that I like, they don't get to speak into my life. Thank you for the engagement, but I'm just not gonna.
Jamie (17:45.099)
Yeah, I work, I work with this with Josh, Jeff, Elaine, my co researcher, co podcaster, co collaborator, you know, and he said similar, you know, he's really he's pretty fluent as well, like you and he first thing that happened when I uploaded to YouTube was 5050 like 50 % where it was like comments about the content and then 50%, which was about me. And he was like, he just said, listen, if they're not moving the conversation forward, delete it.
And I was, and I'm like, it's so interesting because I come sort of from a background where I'm like, the internet is about expression. You know, you let people like breathe and he's like, no, don't delete it. He's like, that out of your head. He's like, you gotta, you have to understand these are, these people are designed, doing it purposely to change that conversation. He's like, it doesn't. And he goes, if you want, and I don't know if you do this, he goes, if you want to actually see, he said, click on their account and see if they have anything. And I was like, oh, and it clicked and there's like no videos posted.
Destinee Day (18:40.96)
Mm-hmm.
Jamie (18:44.078)
They're just chronic posters. And he's like, just delete it. They're probably not even going to check if you deleted it. They're not even going to know. And I was like, oh. So these people just wait for it to fly past their feed. And then this is what they do. But I never, it's so funny, because again, this is my weird, after so many years of teaching this, I just have not encountered this. The vitriol is way higher. But it's also like, you could just delete that. I didn't realize you could just get rid of it.
Destinee Day (19:13.588)
I mean I'm with you on like the internet should be a place of free speech 100 % but from the brand side when I'm coaching brands you don't want that so you go in you see is this likely a bot and if it's likely a bot I delete it
Jamie (19:20.866)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jamie (19:33.785)
So now, let's talk about young people, okay? Like you talk to up and coming people who work in your field. how do you talk to about the environment with like people? you've been around, mean, you've worked with me with young people, you know, it's like, how do you help them, especially coming from like a woman's perspective too, like how do you help them understand like the environment that they enter when they choose this as a career or an aspiration?
Destinee Day (20:02.676)
Well, I mean, if we're talking about women, mean...
I feel like the youth nowadays are way more informed about what it means to have an online presence. I think you either get the people that are hustlers and like they're ready to work and like they know about it and you have to explain to them it doesn't come as easy as it appears, which is the other side of it.
Jamie (20:15.054)
you
Destinee Day (20:40.132)
Or you get the people that have the talent, have something to say, and they are too scared to put themselves out there because the more these generations are online, the more they see the hate, the more they see all the blowback. And it used to be, I still have to have these conversations when I hire, but it's like...
know what's on your feed before you go apply for a job because if you're talking about a certain topic and it doesn't fit the brand of, you know, whatever, like what you say online also reflects back onto jobs, which I think is the biggest conversation I have with the youth. I feel like they're.
they're idealistic and they're like you, like they believe the internet is a place of free speech and all of that, which is lovely. But like you started this podcast off with, it's not our reality. So what you say online does matter, but like look at all the blowback that came from the Charlie Kirk series of firings, right? And people getting very upset about that, but at the end of the day, what you have to say is immediately reflective of corporations. So,
Jamie (21:41.814)
yeah.
Destinee Day (21:52.156)
It's splitting the difference and that is the hardest thing to describe is that yeah, you're being held accountable in your comments if you can call it accountable, right? Like, but you're also gonna be held accountable from powers bigger than you that provide you with paycheck. So you have to ride a very fine line as you become an adult with your social media personal things. I don't know if that answered your question, but that's.
Jamie (22:08.662)
yeah.
Jamie (22:19.854)
So you know you did, it makes me, let me, okay, this is, I'm glad we're having this conversation. Cause this is like, I've been thinking about this a lot too. Cause I'm teaching, I said last time we're teaching brand safety and I, you know, I didn't bring this anecdote up in class, but I'm going to, which is that when I took the job as a director of digital media and like became a representative of a brand, you know, basically one of my very first talks that I got like, because
for everybody listening, I was not a well-behaved student. And so when I returned to school to work there, my reputation preceded me. one of the deans sat me down and very nicely basically explained to me, listen, he said, listen, going forward, you're not you, you are the brand. Like that's what he said to me. And I was like,
He goes, so none of this nonsense, I'm not going to go into details of the nonsense. But he basically said, you are the brand. And so what that means is like from here forward, your representation of this is no longer you, but actually you speaking as something else. And that to me was like, so it did take a little bit to get through my head. But now I want to ask, like now, knowing that we have to be personal brands, that we're, we're each a person that is also maintaining our brand, which means that we're us. But we're also presenting as the representation of us.
Destinee Day (23:29.088)
Mm-hmm.
Jamie (23:45.238)
Like that maintenance is a little bit more difficult because at least there's guidelines when you're dealing with a brand. They have borders, right? I mean, you work with brands like, but now with a person, where do you develop the borders?
Destinee Day (23:59.166)
Right? mean, so I kind of took the realistic approach to teaching your students in a very practical sense at our former institution. And I would hand them the mission statement of the brand and they hated it. They absolutely hated it. That I would make them stick within the guidelines of the brand.
Destinee Day (24:25.514)
but we had to and it taught them a very valuable lesson and they would always tell me at first, I'm not creative, I'm stifling their creativity and I was like, real creativity exists within this box and you learn this lesson now, you're gonna be more successful later. They did, they did. Some of them are quite successful. But that was always the hardest part, right? Like all these young youths, especially women, right? It's very easy to get a lot of attention online for posting.
Jamie (24:27.031)
Mm-hmm.
Jamie (24:54.062)
Mm-hmm.
Destinee Day (24:55.636)
pictures of yourself in your bikini with your friends on vacation, right? That does not translate to the workplace. But then you have to stifle your following a little bit and create, make your account private if you're gonna do that, because then you're representing a brand, right? Or you have to completely wipe it and start over with something a little bit more professional, right?
I would love to post pictures from my vacations on my social media, but I don't because I think that would absolutely destroy credibility because it would become about that and it would not become about anything else. And that's the line as a woman that sucks because if you're looking to build, that's so easy. However, it's not serious and people won't take it seriously.
Jamie (25:40.366)
All
Jamie (25:44.963)
Yeah.
Jamie (25:53.869)
I guess it also depends on the brand too. guess if the brand is that, that makes sense. But if it isn't that, like it is a distractor that's it's farming, that's farming, you know, like what is that called? Like aura farming or engagement farming? Like you're using a manipulation of like your energy to present yourself semi-temporarily into the feed so that people see it, but the sustain it, it's also like what happens? Okay, here's another question.
Destinee Day (26:02.368)
Thank
Jamie (26:19.404)
like, these are all curiosity for me, because it's like, that the world now the world that the state of the internet is different for me. How do you let's say it works, right? Like, let's say you have somebody who messes up a little bit and it works, like, how do you talk them back from back to like, okay, that I'm glad you tried to you got to see how it works. But it's also like, when you're representing whatever company you're representing, or whatever brand you're representing, like, how do you say to them, okay, don't
Destinee Day (26:24.608)
Thanks
Jamie (26:48.98)
I that tactic worked, but the tactic might change. And it's also one thing that I always keep in mind is like, well, this 100 % isn't true. It kind of is, which is like what you put in the internet stays on the internet. You know, that's not true because you could delete and technically it's only as long as the server or people's attention works, you know, so it's not forever, but it is long enough to change somebody's perception. You know, it's long enough to see how you may have played a game that you may not have wanted to like dabble in like.
I guess saying like now knowing that jobs are really leaning into social media and management and management is like a snarky job or it could be a very unique job because you're speaking to a unique audience. How do you pull them back from the excitement of like it worked?
Destinee Day (27:34.016)
Are you talking about like going outside of the brand's guidelines?
Jamie (27:37.868)
Yeah, like bending outside the brand, like, because the brand's probably not going to be too happy about an experiment unless they're like on board with it. like, I don't know, I don't know how like social media managers like you work in this field, like how often they are allowed to have that latitude and of testing that.
Destinee Day (27:57.408)
from my experience, the past few full-time jobs I've had doing it, there's been a clause in my, my employment contract that says you are representative of this brand. don't post anything on social media that, you know, would cause an issue for us. And I feel like that's fairly normal. then that gives HR a leg to be like.
You can't post that like you got to take it down. You have to issue an apology like you you cannot post that and often time legal departments for brands like this aren't gonna look favorably on it because Even if it was successful Putting the brand at risk is not something that they're willing to risk like if you have to make legal do their job Yeah, you're probably on the right track of getting attention But they're gonna be pretty pissed about it. So
It's always been in my contract. I've always any time that not that that's happened for me. Like I've never been reigned back in that regard, but like it's been made clear.
Jamie (29:07.15)
This, this is okay. You just sparked such an idea in my head too, which is panop. Do you know the term panoptic content or like sousveillance it's, Clarissa Jan Lim wrote this for Buzzfeed about a couple of years ago. don't even know. Time doesn't make sense anymore. Um, and this term is about like sousveillance which is like, um, the surveillance by others, not surveillance by the government. And panoptic content is like.
Destinee Day (29:15.38)
Uh-uh.
Destinee Day (29:22.858)
this. Yeah.
Jamie (29:33.795)
when you're posted, like remember the couch guy or like couch, remember him? Like he went viral for just being part of a video where he was like on the couch and he hit his phone very quickly. And so the internet judged him for his actions. And that's kind of falls under panoptic content, which is sometimes somebody else recording you changes your brand. Like most social media managers in this case are like pretty anonymous. Like they represent the brand so well that they're unseen.
But what if you're like your brand is you or you're representing as a representative of a brand, like it's you, your being, your person. Now I'm anti being policed in public. I don't think, like self-censorship is scary. You the idea that like you can't act a certain way because you never know, you know, but on that hand is like, Panoptic content is real. You know, it is a real thing. So it's like, that's a tough, that's a tough space. Again, especially for women, but like,
In general, like bad, I don't want to call it bad behavior, but not so good behavior in public can also become part of a brand's error when that becomes posted by somebody else, like a third party. Like the clause might not even matter because you had no control over that content being uploaded. Like, is that a fear in your field? Like is that?
Destinee Day (30:50.256)
Not really. mean, unless you're the, you're at a Coldplay concert, then like, like,
Jamie (30:56.728)
That's kind of what I mean.
Destinee Day (31:07.552)
worked for anybody that I've been worried about that with.
Destinee Day (31:15.092)
I mean, I could see it if I mean, right? Like the fish stinks from the top down, like an organization. So. I don't know. I've I've worked with people that I've had to be like, hey, you're speaking at 9 a.m. tomorrow. Like. You're wrapping up at 830 and you're back in the hotel room because you can go out after you speak. I don't care about that. Go do whatever you want, but.
ahead of time, you showing up, you're on time, you're gonna smell nice, and you're gonna deliver a clear message. But that's as far as I've ever gone with it. I haven't ever been worried.
Jamie (31:56.395)
No, that's really important because that's basically just management. I mean, that's like you're managing the situation, you're managing the impressions, you know, it's you're managing what it looks, the perception of reality. And it is like, it isn't so much it's weird to call it something different, but it isn't policing. right. It is more like this is, listen, this is the role you are currently in. You technically, I mean, I don't want to, I mean, we're in a place of employment that's precarious. So it's a little harder to make the claim of like, you could just leave.
Destinee Day (31:59.808)
Thank
Jamie (32:26.22)
but you could just not do that. It's like, this is a choice that's made by people. It's also like, for the last 15 years, I'm teaching this program and it's like, or just in internet studies in general. And like, it's in the back of my head consistently about like, what am I preparing them for? What world is this? And where are they going to be walking through it? And are these terms of engagement with the online offline world, which are all one at the same time, like...
something that has to be top of mind all the time, or is it something you turn into like a passive tool? Like you and I used to speak about this, like you get good at technology, like editing tools or photography, and you're not really thinking about it anymore. And then it's just like, it just becomes passive. You're just, that is you. You are, you've merged with the technology to make that work. And so I guess it's like, I think the reframe that I'm going to be going through, especially even with this project that you're, this was like rethinking that, like re, this is something like engaging with this after 15 years.
Destinee Day (33:22.976)
Yes.
Jamie (33:23.456)
and understanding this to my, for myself, rather than like just being like the guy who says this is what it is. Like it really is. A negotiation of your personal self in these tools, because I, know, even my, even in that duality of saying there is no duality, even in my head, I'm like, well, this is content I put online, but technically it's just me. It's me, you know, don't, I don't, this, this fascinating. I don't know. It's, don't know. have to, have to, I have to die.
This week has been really a lot to think about. So I have a lot to think about with this too and like becoming more confident with this because it's like, this is a shift. This is a unique shift that I think more and more people, especially young people have to like really engage with in a professional manner. It's not frivolous any longer.
Destinee Day (34:11.508)
It is not. I mean, what about your students? Do you think they come in, like, are you bursting their bubble in class? Do you think they're aware of it? Like, what, I know that we've shared some students that have had success online. I know that there's, you know, we've had shared people that have had not great experiences online and have learned from it. Like, what do you think from their perspective?
they're taking away.
Jamie (34:42.902)
I think they have, so I know for the most part, now I work in a public school now, so it's like a little bit different. there's a less, public school students usually are, I that they're working all the time, so their time to engage with the critical aspects of the internet is fairly lower, much lower than like somebody who has more time. But I think even when I worked at any of the private schools I've worked at, most people don't know any of this. Like this is, they know it by like, the same way like when you met students and they like,
knew how to edit, you know, like you kind of had to break them out of their bad habits, you know, you, did, they knew how to edit, but they didn't know how to edit, you know, so it's like, had to, you had to like teach them to break the things they knew. So that's kind of like where most of my work is, which is like what you know, and now, now truly what you know, isn't what you know, you know, you really have to understand there's, there is the model that makes up these systems is completely different than the way you use the system.
You know, and that is harder for them to realize because they kind of have to like, you know, it's like kind of like that stages of denial. The first thing is like reject that. No, it can't be. And then finally, there's like, maybe it could be. So it's kind of the same thing you would do when you were teach teach the students like how to edit and do photography. You had to break things.
Destinee Day (35:49.982)
Yeah.
Destinee Day (35:58.718)
Yeah. I mean, I think this goes back to our conversation last week about the White House account, right? Like it's successful because they're manipulating the algorithm to do exactly what it needs to do. It's not successful in the terms that we would define success. It is successful because it makes people angry and it serves as an undercurrent to a lot of what's going on in the environment right now, which
Is I mean, I feel like we used to call that dark posting right like that. There was an element of of that. So I mean No, you're if you're observing the internet on the surface, I don't think you fully understand But when you're going this level deep, it makes us sound like conspiracy theorists Which is it's a it's a very thin line, but it's there and like then you have to be careful not to go too far either direction you have to sit
Jamie (36:36.046)
Yeah.
Jamie (36:54.85)
Yeah, right. Don't go near the doors. Yes. Go a little deep, but don't go near the rabbit holes. Right. Yeah. And that's responsibility we have too, which is like helping them manage their tourism in those spaces without like managing like their new occupying those spaces. Yeah, it's just so different. I like this ongoing conversation because I'm like, I'm...
It's a part of an experiment, you know, like the way I look at it. It's not experimenting and like the craziness, but it's, I, know, in the process of learning how the internet works, I don't think it's something you could just learn and just be like, there, know it, you know, it's like, let's say with editing, cause genres and style and aesthetics change, but they do move a bit slower, you know, whereas I feel like you learn how to master an algorithm and all of a sudden like that shifts. have no, you have very little control over like how the system or the platform.
controls that storytelling. And so you really have to be like pretty nimble, I think. Like you have to be a nimble, agile producer to really understand how to work the internet. But now I know you also have to be very aware and curious. Like you have to be. It's not something you could just use and just be like, it was built that way. You know, I can't do anything about it. Now I have to take a forefront approach and just be like, I have agency in this world.
and I can make these changes, I can do this myself. And it's a little bit more onus on like the user, but I really do think that it'll make, could potentially, now knowing the closure that I got, it could make the internet, you have control to make the internet a better place.
Destinee Day (38:36.424)
I'm glad that's your take on it. I don't know. I'm thinking like, it changes what I choose to accept as truth, right? I'm marketing and PR, my whole job is story manipulation and telling a specific angle and selling a specific thing, right? So it's very much like the WWE. Do I choose to believe that it's true?
and just ride with the story. Like, I can just sit back and tune out and vibe to the story and be super into it and just enjoy being a fan. Or is part of that ruined because I know that it's not real and I know that it's all scripted and does that ruin the storytelling for me? Like, you can go either way on that.
But that's now how I view the internet. So thanks for that, Jamie.
Jamie (39:34.798)
But it's not.
Jamie (39:38.991)
Yeah, sorry. mean, it's this is this is I'm sorry. I am. I'm truly am like I'm sorry to tell you that information that I learned. And I'm sorry to tell all my students all that information that I learned. I like I said, it's not the closure I wanted. It's it's closure because now we know without saying it's a A to B direct response to a terrible monster who inspired
Destinee Day (39:43.871)
Oof.
Jamie (40:08.502)
a young man who operated a message board to start a space that shifted politics as we know it. But it is one of those things where it's like, well, if that is the case, even if it isn't the case, that is the case. That is what happened. So it is important because if we're preparing young people or anybody to use this space, that's the structure. That's the concrete poured in the walls. So it is the world that we have to inhabit. And when we use it that way, we have to make sure that we
It's not just about steel and metal, like you say, to grow a thick skin because you do. That's I agree with you. But it is also like to navigate it. I still have that optimism that if you do get that critical approach, you do have a slight bit more control over it than somebody who just like turns it on, follows the algorithm, goes with the flow. And then when the flow changes, they just are unable to figure that out. So I just I have a I have a better a better idea that these
This is, it's good to know, and I'm sorry you know, but it is what it is now.
Destinee Day (41:13.908)
Yep. Ugh. That's depressing.
Jamie (41:18.978)
Baby, we gotta change it. We gotta change it. That's what it is.
Destinee Day (41:25.702)
How do you change it when 15 years ago it was backed by a power that still is holding a lot of power today? Like people are scared. Powerful people are afraid of this. So...
Jamie (41:33.89)
Yes. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jamie (41:46.467)
I think we talked about it offline, but I'll say it again, which is that we have to open our minds to other ideas, even if it doesn't fit our world view or confirmation bias. We have to know that every person comes to their experience some way or another. How they got there is theirs, but it doesn't have to be yours, but you should have some willingness to be reflexive to it. And that means if you're able to be reflexive to their experience,
in that just that little bit away, you might be able to see it, even if it doesn't make sense, you might be able to see it from their way. And if you could do that, you might be able to share something with them. And if you share one thing with them, that's the beginning step of like a new connection, a new follower, a new friend, you know? So I think that is the pushing away is what causes a lot of the polarization and problems and the things that the powers that fear all these systems.
I think honestly they fear it because it is broken, but I also think they fear it because they don't know how people can use the internet the way it is. Like I've always explained, I'm a pro internet person. I think it's the best collective tool in the history of humankind. It just doesn't get used as well for that, but it is that. And so I think that also scares people that it can do that, but it also can't do that at the same time. So it is one of those things where I think...
And I'm not talking about the commenters who just like shit on your appearance. I'm talking about like people who engage willingly. You should be like, okay, that they actually watch the content. They went through it. Like there's something there that's more than nothing, you know? So that is my optimism. that's what I'm talking to myself here, to be honest, because I'm hyping myself up to like not be afraid of the space anymore. But like that is something that I think can make the internet a better place.
Destinee Day (43:39.52)
Okay, well, I'm glad that you're optimistic. I'm gonna go stare at a wall for 30 minutes. Oh, all right, I'm gonna end it there.
Jamie (43:42.734)
You
Yeah.
Jamie (43:52.344)
Alright.