What Louis Theroux’s Inside the Manosphere Gets Right—and Leaves Out
The Manosphere Is Not Just an Internet Subculture Anymore
What Louis Theroux’s Inside the Manosphere Gets Right—and Leaves Out
Louis Theroux’s Inside the Manosphere introduces viewers to an online ecosystem of influencers selling dominance, wealth, sexual access, extreme self-reliance, and opposition to feminism.
The documentary is effective because Theroux rarely needs to shout or directly confront his subjects. He asks simple questions, allows silence to linger, and watches their confident online personas weaken under relatively mild scrutiny.
But the film also creates a difficult tension: How do you expose misogynistic influencers without giving them an even larger platform?
In this episode of Network Issues, media scholar Jamie Cohen and marketing strategist Destinee Day examine what the documentary reveals about online masculinity, performative identities, women’s participation, youth culture, and why awareness alone is not enough.
What Is the Manosphere?
The manosphere is a loose network of online communities, creators, forums, podcasts, and businesses centered on masculinity and men’s issues.
It can include:
Men’s-rights activists
Pickup artists
Red-pill communities
Incels
Men Going Their Own Way
Looksmaxxing creators
Dating and masculinity coaches
Fitness influencers
Hustle and wealth creators
Antifeminist political commentators
Not everyone discussing men’s health, masculinity, relationships, or fatherhood belongs to the manosphere.
The term is most useful when describing an ecosystem in which men’s concerns are repeatedly framed through hostility toward feminism, resentment of women, rigid gender hierarchy, or the belief that modern society is systematically designed against men.
Large-scale research has found that older communities such as pickup artists and men’s-rights groups have increasingly overlapped with or given way to more extreme incel and antifeminist spaces. (arXiv)
What Is
Louis Theroux: Inside the Manosphere
About?
The Netflix documentary follows Theroux as he meets prominent masculinity and red-pill influencers in the United States and Europe.
The film examines how these creators turn ideas about male dominance, physical strength, wealth, sexual access, and traditional gender roles into entertainment and business.
Netflix describes the documentary as an investigation into a growing ultra-masculine network whose influencers are reshaping young men’s ideas about masculinity and manhood. (Louis Theroux)
Jamie argues that the documentary works best as an entry point.
For viewers already familiar with incel forums, looksmaxxing, red-pill language, and influencer economies, the film may feel introductory. For parents or older viewers who still imagine internet personalities as marginal “YouTubers,” it reveals that these creators operate inside a mature and profitable media system.
What Does the Documentary Get Right?
The film is especially effective at showing that the manosphere is not built only from coherent political beliefs.
It is also built from:
Performance
Lifestyle branding
Monetization
Status
Conflict
Livestreaming
Audience participation
Aspirational imagery
Clips designed to spread
The influencers are not merely expressing opinions.
They are producing content products.
Their cars, bodies, homes, partners, parties, clothing, arguments, and emotional outbursts all become part of the brand.
Why Does Louis Theroux’s Soft Approach Work?
Some critics argue that Theroux is too gentle with his subjects.
Destinee sees his approach differently.
The documentary shows that mild questions can be more revealing than an aggressive debate. Several subjects appear confident while delivering monologues to followers but become defensive, avoidant, or visibly uncomfortable when Theroux asks them to explain the foundation of their beliefs.
His calmness removes an easy excuse.
They cannot simply claim that they are being attacked by a hostile interviewer. Instead, the audience watches them struggle with basic follow-up questions.
A gentle interview style does not mean the documentary endorses their claims.
It creates space for their contradictions to become visible.
Does the Documentary Give the Manosphere Too Much Attention?
That risk is unavoidable.
Documentaries about extremists, conspiracy figures, or online provocateurs can provide:
New audiences
Legitimacy
Search interest
Clips
Status
Mainstream recognition
Material for future content
The film may expose the influencers while also confirming that they are culturally significant enough to receive a Netflix documentary.
This does not mean the subject should be ignored.
It means coverage should give viewers context, language, and practical tools—not merely access to shocking personalities.
The episode argues that Inside the Manosphere explains the problem more successfully than it explains what audiences should do next.
Is the Manosphere Real—or a Performance?
It is both.
Jamie compares the influencers’ personas to kayfabe, the convention in professional wrestling where performers maintain fictional identities and rivalries as though they were real.
A creator may behave differently away from the camera. Their wealth may be exaggerated. A luxury car may be rented. A conflict may be staged. A relationship may be presented strategically.
But the consequences of the performance are real.
Followers may imitate the language, beliefs, appearance, or treatment of women even when the influencer privately treats the persona as entertainment.
The creator can say:
That is not who I am off camera.
The audience still experiences the on-camera version as instruction.
What Is a Digital Persona?
A digital persona is the identity someone performs through online media.
It may emphasize certain traits while concealing others:
Confidence
Wealth
Anger
Sexual success
Physical dominance
Political certainty
Rebellion
Traditional masculinity
All public media involves some degree of performance.
The problem arises when viewers mistake a monetized persona for an authentic, reproducible life.
A young follower may believe that the influencer’s visible status proves the ideology works, without seeing the production team, financial arrangement, editing, sponsorships, rented property, failed relationships, or emotional instability outside the frame.
Why Does the Camera Frame Matter?
The episode compares manosphere influencers with products designed primarily to look good on social media.
Some restaurant dishes are created less for eating than for photographing. Their exaggerated size, color, or presentation helps customers produce shareable content.
Jamie argues that certain influencers function similarly.
Their bodies and lifestyles may exist in the physical world, but they are optimized for the frame:
Broad shoulders fill the screen.
Luxury objects remain visible behind them.
Women become props.
Arguments become clips.
Public conflict becomes proof of dominance.
Every interaction becomes content.
The persona is not merely recorded by the camera. It is designed for the camera.
What Role Do Women Play in the Manosphere?
Women appear in manosphere content as:
Partners
Guests
Models
Debate opponents
Status symbols
Employees
Collaborators
Influencers building their own audiences
Their presence can help male creators demonstrate desirability and power.
Some women may participate because the environment offers money, visibility, belonging, travel, status, or business opportunities.
That participation does not erase the unequal power structures involved.
A woman can receive material benefits from a system that still objectifies her.
The episode compares this dynamic with the prestige available to women positioned near powerful leaders in other hierarchical or cult-like communities.
Is Women’s Participation Proof That the Culture Is Not Misogynistic?
No.
A misogynistic system does not require every woman to reject it.
People can participate in systems that limit, exploit, or objectify them for complicated reasons, including:
Financial security
Social status
Emotional attachment
Audience growth
Community
Fear
Limited alternatives
Genuine ideological agreement
The existence of female participants does not disprove misogyny any more than individual women succeeding inside a discriminatory institution proves that the institution is equitable.
Why Does the Manosphere Appeal to Young Men?
The manosphere offers emotionally simple explanations for complicated problems.
Young men may be experiencing:
Loneliness
Economic insecurity
Romantic rejection
Lack of purpose
Social anxiety
Unstable work
Body-image pressure
A desire for male community
Influencers can convert those problems into a direct story:
You are struggling because feminism weakened men, women choose the wrong partners, and society no longer respects masculinity.
The explanation is persuasive because it names a villain and offers a plan.
That plan may involve fitness, money, dating tactics, dominance, sexual conquest, or rejecting emotional vulnerability.
Some advice may initially appear useful. The user may be encouraged to exercise, work, improve confidence, or develop discipline.
The ideological layer is added gradually.
Does the Manosphere Help Disenfranchised Men?
It may provide temporary belonging and structure.
That does not mean it resolves the underlying problem.
The community may redirect frustration toward women instead of addressing:
Economic inequality
Housing
Education
Mental health
Employment
Social isolation
Community decline
Lack of accessible support
Men are told that women are responsible for outcomes created by larger economic and social systems.
The result can be a self-reinforcing loop.
The more hostile a person becomes toward women, the harder it may become to develop healthy relationships. That failure is then presented as further proof that the manosphere’s claims were correct.
Is the Manosphere Really About Attracting Women?
Often, only partly.
The visible promise may be romantic or sexual success.
The actual community is frequently organized around the approval of other men.
Male creators rank bodies, wealth, sexual histories, lifestyles, and status. Followers learn to perform masculinity for a male audience while describing women as the intended reward.
Jamie argues that the manosphere uses on young men many of the manipulation tactics it claims men should use on women.
Young men become the customers.
They purchase courses, subscriptions, supplements, coaching, access, identity, and hope.
How Does Online Misogyny Affect Offline Life?
Online misogyny does not remain confined to forums.
Teachers and researchers have reported its influence in classrooms, relationships, workplaces, and peer interactions. One 2025 study found that educators were observing misogynistic language and behavior affecting female students, while large majorities said schools needed dedicated teaching materials to address the problem. (PubMed)
Possible offline effects include:
Harassment
Hostility toward female teachers
Relationship control
Sexual entitlement
Reduced empathy
Rigid gender expectations
Avoidance of emotional support
Greater openness to extremist politics
Exposure does not automatically radicalize every viewer.
It can still normalize language and assumptions that shape behavior.
Why Is Media Literacy Important?
Media literacy helps viewers separate:
Performance from authenticity
Wealth from branding
Confidence from defensiveness
Advice from a sales funnel
Masculinity from dominance
Community from manipulation
A character from a complete person
A useful question is:
What does this creator gain if I believe this persona is real?
The answer may include money, attention, political influence, subscriptions, product sales, or increased status within the creator economy.
What Can Parents and Trusted Adults Do?
Monitoring every post is neither realistic nor sufficient.
Conversation is more effective than panic.
The Greater London Authority’s current guidance recommends approaching boys with curiosity, listening without immediate judgment, discussing how algorithms and influencers work, and helping them distinguish healthy concerns from misogynistic explanations. (London City Hall)
Useful questions include:
What do you like about this creator?
What problem is he promising to solve?
What is he selling?
Does he treat women as complete people?
Does his advice work outside the screen?
How does he respond when challenged?
Is this confidence or performance?
What would a healthy relationship actually require?
Ridiculing the creator may push the young person to defend the community more strongly.
The goal is to restore context and critical distance.
What Are Healthier Alternatives for Young Men?
Jamie emphasizes alternatives built around achievable skills, community, and mutual responsibility.
Examples include:
Learning to cook
Exercise without extreme body obsession
Volunteering
Joining a team or club
Developing practical skills
Building friendships offline
Therapy or counseling
Mentorship
Creative work
Learning household responsibilities
Participating in mutual aid
These activities create evidence that a person can contribute, improve, and belong without treating masculinity as domination.
Small gains can still produce confidence.
They do not require resentment.
Key Takeaways
The manosphere is a media ecosystem, not one unified organization.
Louis Theroux’s documentary is an effective introduction for viewers unfamiliar with the subject.
Its calm interview style reveals how quickly confident personas can weaken under basic questioning.
Online masculinity is frequently a monetized performance.
A persona may be partly fictional while still producing real-world harm.
Women can participate in and benefit from a system that objectifies women.
The manosphere turns loneliness and economic frustration into hostility toward feminism.
Young men are often the true customers of manosphere manipulation.
Online misogyny can influence classrooms, relationships, and political attitudes.
Media literacy should include identifying performance, incentives, framing, and sales funnels.
Parents should respond with informed conversation rather than ridicule or panic.
Young men need community, practical competence, emotional maturity, and attainable forms of belonging.
Questions Answered in This Episode
What is the manosphere?
The manosphere is a loose ecosystem of online communities and creators centered on masculinity, men’s rights, dating, self-improvement, and opposition to feminism.
Is
Inside the Manosphere
worth watching?
It is a useful introduction to several major personalities and ideas, although viewers already familiar with the topic may find it limited in historical depth and practical solutions.
Why is Louis Theroux so calm with the influencers?
His nonconfrontational style allows viewers to watch the subjects’ arguments and personas weaken without giving them an easy claim that the interviewer is attacking them.
Are manosphere influencers being authentic?
Their content may combine genuine beliefs with exaggerated, strategic, or monetized personas. The performance can still influence viewers even when it does not reflect the creator’s private life.
Why do women participate in manosphere content?
Possible incentives include money, visibility, status, belonging, business opportunities, relationships, and genuine agreement.
How can parents respond to manosphere content?
Ask what the creator is selling, discuss how online personas work, restore context, avoid ridicule, and offer healthier sources of community and guidance.
About the Hosts
Jamie Cohen
Jamie Cohen is a media scholar, professor, writer, and expert on internet culture, online extremism, memes, media literacy, and the manosphere.
Website: jamesncohen.com
Substack: New Media Homework
Destinee Day
Destinee Day is a marketing strategist and founder of Rudy & Company. Her work focuses on branding, digital strategy, communications, online influence, and responsible marketing.
Website: rudyandcompany.com
Continue the Conversation
When does healthy self-improvement become compulsive optimization? Should brands and journalists use terms such as looksmaxxing casually—or does that help fringe ideologies enter mainstream culture?
Follow Network Issues for more conversations about internet culture, the manosphere, media literacy, social platforms, masculinity, advertising, and the systems shaping how people see themselves.
-
Jamie (00:01.47)
All right, so I'm going to ask you a question I don't know the answer to, but did you see the new Louis Theroux documentary Inside the Manosphere?
Destinee Day (00:10.444)
Yes, and I watched it because I know this is important to you and a lot of the topic that you were writing about, so as your friend, I watched it to, you know, be like, Jamie does a lot of, you know, stuff on this and instead what happened was I sent you a series of very angry voice memos because I found it absolutely infuriating. I had to take breaks watching it because I was mad. Yeah, I just...
Jamie (00:37.15)
Yeah, I appreciate you watching it for the sake of me. I just appreciate you watching it. It is a fascinating documentary. There's been a handful of like criticism about it and a lot of like critiques about its lack of depth or even it's like neglecting the idea of like women's rights inside of this. honestly, I really did like the documentary. I thought it was like really, really well done. But I do also have a realization.
a personal realization that this movie is not for me or you. You you and I are above the, above the high, we are higher level than this audience is supposed to be. So I think as an entry point to the conversation, the documentary is fantastic. But I also think it leaves enough room in there for people who should rightfully be furious at the subject matter, especially the fact that on top of the idea that the Manosphere has become culture, that we have to be subjected to more of it.
And so that's something that I know, though, the I really appreciated your angry voice memos, which also are nice and helpful because they are in voice and not text. They can't be held against you. But your opinions on it are correct. think that any woman that watches this film has to see it as a way of amplifying these misogynist voices in a world where the misogynist voices already normalized and it becomes fairly like.
Destinee Day (01:46.636)
Yes.
Jamie (02:03.848)
dangerous propaganda in that way too.
Destinee Day (02:08.042)
Yes.
Jamie (02:09.854)
So as you noted, for me, that the last year, the whole year of 2025, I worked on a book project, which now I kind of regret not just turning it into content. really, I was courted by an agent to write a book proposal about my expertise in far right extremism and the Manosphere. And I've been studying it since 2016 or 17. And so I like, I kind of really understand it from like its core structure.
The Manosphere doesn't born in 2016 and 17. And just to be clear, the term Manosphere is a term that connects to the entire media ecosystem that is men's rights movements and men's rights movement adjacent, which means it includes everybody from, as Louis Theroux explains in the film, the non-extremist to the extremist. And so in his film, he focuses on the extremist, or at least what I would consider like the 97th percentile of extremists, because there are unfortunately people.
far worse than the people he focuses on. But the rest of them are fairly banal and fairly accessible to most people, not just men. And I'm talking about Joe Rogan, I'm talking about Aiden Ross, and I'm talking about the podcasters that basically are just podcasters. But they sit within inside the Manosphere because that's their market, I guess is the best way to think of it. And then one thing that I think we should talk about today is the fact that the Manosphere isn't just men. It is subsisted and
both complicit and structured by the women participants as well, not just the women participants like formerly Lauren Southern in the late 2010s, but also the partners of a lot of these people who are kind of stuck in a situation where they really, unfortunately just have to be the piece, the object of study of the people or the object of, how do I say this right?
the object to these men. I mean, they've become fully objectified. So they're part of that problem too. And so like I said, I put this book proposal together. It was called Angry Boys Among Us, how the Manosphere became culture and what we could do about it. And it wasn't selected because of several reasons. One is a crowded field because a lot of people are writing about it right now. It's become too ahead. And it's also, I didn't have a platform, which is part of why we're
Jamie (04:29.798)
working on this as well. And I don't regret it not coming out, but I do think there are gaps in people's knowledge about this subject matter that don't let them realize that like people like JD Vance and Pete Hagseth, they're also included very intensely inside the Manosphere. And I think revealed in this documentary, which I think most people found shocking was the role of Baron Trump. So that was fascinating to me, because I think of all people in the administration, it's him, not Trump, that are more of the
Manosphere people. And in the end, I really did find the documentary good, but of course, it really doesn't give us any tools of what to do about this situation.
Destinee Day (05:11.054)
It does not. It just leaves you with a lot of anger and a lot of, it left me with a lot of anger and a lot of feelings. And, you know, I've done research, was researching it afterwards after I'd taken some space from viewing it. And there's a ton of feedback on it from, you know, Louis Theroux's approach being a little too soft, which I want to be like, how do you,
How else do you wanna facilitate that conversation? Because while these men put forth a very aggressive, and we can talk about it, they put forth a very aggressive front, but when actually softly confronted about the foundation of their beliefs, you can see it in several points of the documentary. They can't handle it, they can't process it, they can't have a conversation about it and they shut it down. There's also tons of conversations out there that I've seen is a man.
qualified to have these conversations about sexism, which I have a lot of thoughts on. And then, you know, on the same side, then the women's participation in it, like crazy to me. But then also like a ton of stuff to your point about who the actual audience is for this. There's a few articles out there that's talking about you need to monitor your kids, what your kids are looking at on social media. So there's not a clear action point, but obviously the internet is full of.
Jamie (06:36.262)
Yeah, fortunately we do have the space to critique it and talk about it. So does create a conversation. This is a conversation starter. This is like, first off, the framing device is at the beginning. So tells you who the audience is for. He says at the very early part of the movie when one of the men say to him, they're actually shocked. And this is like our background of like having cameras and being television people. Like we kind of see through this, but a lot of people don't have this experience.
When you walk in with a documentary crew or even like a television crew, it's big gear. This isn't like a laptop on a stand. This is like an ENG camera on your shoulder with mat boxes, battery packs, audio devices, a lighting guy holding a lighting kit, another boom operator. And so when he walks in, he says, wow, this is a big camera. And goes, and he says, no, this is the real deal. We're not YouTubers. And that like, that was probably the most, because, okay, let me read, let's just reframe this for the people who watching this thing.
That to me was the most angering part because I already know about the rest of the atmosphere. And the angering part for me is the fact that like he is pejorative about the idea of YouTubers. So he's framing it for an older audience who is also in that same thought prep space of like, these are just people having fun on the internet. And as you know, as we've talked about multiple times and anybody who's read my work for the last decade or so.
knows that like that is my biggest problem with critical internet studies is that you can't constantly be saying like the internet is a problem and then just being like, the internet's another place. You can't really have it both ways. And we talked about that, I think on the first episode we did this on, you know, so it is to me when he frames it that way, we know immediately, he's not talking to us. He's talking to people who are afraid. And that's where that whole, you need to monitor what your kids are watching. Of course you do. That's.
It's not just because the manuscript exists, but because the internet is open. It's everything all at once. And so it's just one of those like reminders that's in there. And so I liked the idea that he at least offers that shape at the beginning, no matter how pejorative I felt about it. But I think by having that knowledge, it's like a lot of the criticism that came about the film then don't acknowledge that the movie is not for them.
Jamie (08:46.558)
So we really have to reframe our discussion about how we discuss this with like adults and young people around it. especially, I think the one thing that was left out of the film overall that made me kind of upset was the fact that there's no perspectives of what the young woman would do when they come across this type of content. We get tons and tons of examples of what happens with young men. You even get to see like the outcome of Sneak-O.
when his little fans, teenagers, these boys come up to him and they start saying how much they hate women. He goes, what did I do? And it's like, yeah, man, you can't like build this house of misogyny and not expect the boys to become misogynists, you know? So that at least there's a reveal in there because I think a lot of people are like, head in the sand types. They just don't want to know that this is a reality. And unfortunately, this is a very real thing.
Destinee Day (09:39.436)
Yes, it was one of the things that was so baffling to me watching it was there's this, I feel a conflicting dichotomy with these men specifically because on one hand, you see them treat these girls as their objects, right? How many of them have these women that are around them where they talk about one-sided
monogamy and they're running around in this skimpiest bathing suit, you know, like, please. And the women are participatory in it, which is a thing I will get into in a minute because it infuriates me. But also then you see how these men, boys, react when their mothers are around. One of them even says, you know, my mom doesn't approve of any of this. He has that whole little thing. I'm like, what the
Jamie (10:37.214)
Yeah.
Destinee Day (10:38.53)
What? How is this both? So to the women's point, something I don't think to, you mentioned it, but no one talks about how the women are participating in this. They are getting something out of participating in this. They have to, because I don't believe in my gut that
you would participate in it for any other reason. And a few of them do kind of talk about that. And there is a side of, you know, women that just, you know, wants money and nice things and to be taken care of, I think is at the root of that. They want to feel taken care of. And that innate need is being taken advantage of in a way that feels real close to domestic violence. Like I'm not going to say like violence, right?
But that kind of manipulation that happens because obviously they want enough money to feel secure, whatever that amount is, that's different for everybody. Some people want to be taken care of in a remote cabin in the woods and never have access to the internet and that's great. And some people want the cars and to live in Miami. But it's infuriating to watch these women participate in it.
Jamie (12:00.401)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Destinee Day (12:07.406)
because as someone who's slightly conservative
But yet a feminist, you know, I sit in the middle, it's both to me. How could you let yourself get into this situation where that's the reputation you have? And it makes me think a lot about Pamela Anderson. I don't know if you ever watched her documentary. You know, she never once thought when she was young, the impact of what she was.
Jamie (12:32.722)
Yeah.
Destinee Day (12:41.186)
doing and how that would affect her two sons. You know, and she says that and they, she just wasn't thinking far enough ahead, but she was objectified and taken advantage of and participated in it because it brought her fame, notoriety, money, all of the attention that she wants. You see some girls are very visible in public and then you have that guy from Louisiana who said that he will never, she's not,
He's not showing her. She doesn't, which felt very conservative, not in a healthy, good way. You know, like, I think it's hard to talk about it in language that feels not extremist. And that's where a lot of my vein crumbles.
Jamie (13:18.654)
Mm-mm.
Jamie (13:25.084)
Yeah. Yeah, I don't but I don't think you're wrong about the sense of violence, though, like from my studies, these that it doesn't have to be overt violence to be violent. Misogyny is violence. Anti feminism is violence. is an intent. A lot of these men remember they're now adults on this documentary, but they grew up it's revealed towards the end of the documentary, as most documentaries about internet culture do.
They reveal their younger selves on the screen. And a lot of these guys came up via the internet. And if you think they came up in a vacuum, it's impossible. These guys came up through incel forums. They came up through forums where women's violence isn't just normalized, but desired. is a, background of incel culture and a lot of the stuff that isn't mentioned in this documentary. And I honestly, I give it a pass for this. And the reason I give it a pass is because this is, this goes deep and it's hard to explain in a short amount of time. The documentary is a fairly tight hour and a half.
And it really does pass very quickly. Like it feels like a TV show more than a documentary. But one of the things that's unsaid that is unfortunately unsaid is that the shape of incel culture is about their innate, their deep, their deep feelings that come from like literally the 1990s. So this is like a 30 year old belief system of the men's rights activist movements in which women, third wave feminism and potentially Tumblrification fourth wave feminism had succeeded.
has succeeded, I'm talking about in their head, they're certain that feminism succeeded so well that men are the oppressed class. That's they feel. That is a true belief. know, yes, that's the correct response because obviously they're wrong. You and I live in a real world and so does that probably everybody watching this piece of content unless they're a troll who's going to react to this. But if you're living in the objective consensual reality, that's obviously a falsehood.
Destinee Day (15:05.934)
You
Jamie (15:20.574)
But it's very easy to say that to young men who feel disenfranchised by the system, not by women, by the system that has disenfranchised them or like excluded them from prosperity. Their aspirations, just as young women's are not incentivized as much as they may have been in the 1990s and early 2000s before the financial crisis. So rather than approach it through like the reality of what's going on in disenfranchisement, what you're talking about is that the women
in this case are actually now part of this marketing plan. The incentive now is not just profit, but attention, but also it's the market. It's a marketplace. So you're actually looking at the visible output of a new marketplace that isn't being curtailed. if some, in some ways, and I can't speak to it directly from like the male perspective, but is propped up.
by some women participants who may feel some sort of benefit that comes from this, because there are benefits. It's not just monetary, it is belonging. People wanna belong.
Destinee Day (16:25.038)
Mm-hmm. think a lot of it, I mean, we kind of we've talked about it briefly in a few episodes, but you know, they're the influencer, right? Everybody wants to be the influencer and being associated with these men on the social channels brings them influence and with that comes an association of power, wealth, prosperity, you know, all the things that they want. You and I see it as a facade, you know, it's a very glass house.
situation. You know, and I, it makes me think of the women, like the wives of cult leaders, right? They obviously get out of it. This whole atmosphere, all the, most of the guys in here feel very culty to me. And it just makes you think like, well, the wives of the cult leaders feel like they have prestige, like they have power. They're, you know, the top woman and
man is that just frustrating because you and I both know real feminism is not the oppression of men and that is never what it is. And so someone that feels very strongly in that belief that it is the elevation of both to see that the manosphere is co-opted, that feminism is, you know, anti-male is just always incredibly infuriating to me.
Jamie (17:35.204)
Mm-hmm. That's right. Yep.
Jamie (17:44.51)
Mm-hmm.
Jamie (17:54.749)
Yeah, it's a fiction and it's a very easily believed fiction because when you're young, you don't have the experience that you have when you're older, obviously, because what is that quote that I used to love to use? It's like experience is the one thing you get 100 % of the time immediately after you needed it. it's so there's they don't have it yet. And so without the contrast of experience, they're just going to hear these men who are in position. You're right. They're in positions of power. And whether it's a facade or not.
Destinee Day (18:10.605)
Yeah.
Jamie (18:21.756)
And what isn't mentioned in the documentary is that a lot of the men in the Manosphere, like he focuses on three or four major characters, but there's hundreds. And many of them like literally will go to like car dealerships and sit in their cars and like videotape and pretend it's theirs. So it isn't just like when you mentioned as a facade in like the metaphysical sense, it's actually a facade. Like it literally exists solely for the camera. It doesn't exist in real life at all.
Destinee Day (18:30.638)
Mm.
Jamie (18:50.258)
But when you're a young person and your access point is the screen, like it's gonna look real. It's like that, a lot of my friends, we talk about the idea of like K-Fabe. Like this was a very good documentary about K-Fabe. And she even mentions, I don't remember the woman's name, it was one of their partners. And she's like, he's not really like this off the screen. And that's K-Fabe, that's like wrestlers. They don't go home and throw their children against the wall, they're people. But the idea of...
You know, like, right? Like, so these guys are like presenting themselves, their performance, but they like, they're what they've they've, how do I put this? Unlike a wrestler where their muscles exist, right? Their muscles exist, but their personalities don't. These guys exist as women haters everywhere. Like that is their thing. It's their brand. It's an actual brand. It's like, it's their, it's their NIL of existence. And so that becomes a problem because it is hard for young people to see that.
without knowing the difference between what kayfabe is or it's like when the guy of like years ago was like, it's real to me, man. It isn't even a pretend to be real. Like for these young men, it is real. Like it isn't like a contrast.
Destinee Day (19:54.979)
Mm.
Destinee Day (20:02.648)
feel like this is a conversation that I've been having a lot lately, but your whole persona point right there.
I come from film and television, right? I have a way to read anything that is produced, that it's produced. It's obviously not reality. I've seen well-respected actors play terrible people on screen, and I know they are not the character, which I feel is maybe something we're losing a little bit because given the heated rivalry situation, which we're not getting into, but...
There's a literacy there that is missing for these younger generations to be able to understand that what you see on the screen is not reality. It's a story. And your point makes me think about my husband grew up with a very famous comedian. I'm not going to name names. Sometimes he can be, I view him very satirical, right? I don't take anything this man says.
Seriously because he is playing a character on in his comedy shows and on his podcast I've met the man several times in person both before his success and after his success That is not who that person is That is a come there is the persona that shows up on stage There's the persona that makes the money, but the real person behind it is not this this angry screaming
you know, satirical take on current events. It's a kind and considerate person. But I know that. These younger generations don't because to your point, their reality exists within this frame. So I could have a bunch of, know, JD Vance and Trump flags all over this office.
Destinee Day (22:11.488)
as long as it doesn't sit in this frame.
Jamie (22:13.438)
Yeah. Mm hmm. Because the reality is the frame. Yeah. And this is like it's proven through like clavicular and his idea of frame mogging and like the term frame mogging is dual like that just means like out showing somebody inside of your picture. But it's also his his frame his width of his shoulders that occupies the space, you know, he's aware of the shape and his occupation of space. So if somebody is bigger than him, it creates a problem for him because he doesn't want to be taken
Destinee Day (22:15.544)
So.
Jamie (22:42.554)
out of the shape that he's presenting. Have you ever been to a restaurant or a cafe or anything where they have a special Instagram menu? Like a menu that's like, geez, all right, I'm about to introduce you to something horrible. There are, I don't know, maybe it's not in your region, I guess, I don't know, or you just haven't been to these terrible places. There are...
Destinee Day (22:53.75)
No, that's a thing?
Jamie (23:10.746)
several restaurants and diners up here. I'm not gonna name the restaurant just because I don't feel like getting them coming after me. But there was a diner in New York that has a literal section on their menu that's called Instagram favorites. they are food that the way I could best describe this food is that it is disgusting. It is food designed specifically for the Instagram image. I don't know if it's consumable.
Destinee Day (23:17.238)
Yeah.
Jamie (23:39.423)
And if it is consumable, it would most likely give you a stomach ache. It's like your type of like sandwich that would be like a burger with like mac and cheese on top with like eight toppings and it's bigger than reality. But the point of that is that the food is not food. There was also a trend on Long Island where you and I used to work. There was a trend about two to three years ago about the pickle sandwich. It was two pieces of pickle with the sandwich in between. So rather than bread, you remember this?
Destinee Day (24:06.029)
I I do. And it reminds me of the sandwich, who had the sandwich where it was two pieces of fried chicken and then all the...
Jamie (24:09.374)
Yeah!
Jamie (24:15.364)
right. Yeah, that was KFC had like the whatever it was, but that becomes an adaptation to a point where you have to like really, if you're being a TV person and being somebody who used to produce, that is the ability for the consumer to create content. It's an excess point for the average consumer to be a content creator. And the point of that that's really important is that you can make an argument that like it's not food.
Destinee Day (24:19.139)
down.
Jamie (24:45.008)
It's not food because technically it is digital media that happens to exist on our side of the screen, but it only exists on our side of the screen temporarily, because it's expirable. And it exists because it will present itself on camera. And I know that's kind of like a heady or like academic, but the way I look at it is like clavicular and these manosphere guys, they're not much different than a pickle sandwich. They are very much
Destinee Day (25:09.452)
Yes.
Jamie (25:13.97)
They exist for the digital world. Their bodies might exist. They might have a beating heart on this side, but their sole existence is for the screen. So when you talk about the idea of like seeing a comedian and take off the act, you know, or a wrestler turn off the kayfabe this isn't the same for these guys. These guys are digital media. So they are as close as we can expect, like the idea of the matrix where they often like the matrix is the system that we have to put down.
and have to fight against it. And they don't realize they're the remainder. They're the dark Neo. They are the guy that exists as part of the system itself that has pooped out into our world. And we have to deal with them because they're both digital media and real at the exact same time, but primarily the matrix. They are the matrix.
Destinee Day (26:07.822)
No, it just well the idea of you know, they're the the excrement of the internet Is so accurate It's just so accurate and it it goes back and it harkens back to this conversation then what do we do about?
Jamie (26:17.406)
Yeah.
Destinee Day (26:31.746)
What do we do with the turds? Like as a society, right, even our ancient ancestors learned that when you let waste in the streets, everybody gets sick. And so, know, plumbing and a waste system was invented, a way to flush it all out. how do we, sorry, how do we flush out these turds?
Jamie (26:34.372)
Right?
Jamie (26:44.958)
Yeah.
Destinee Day (27:01.038)
because I can't think of a better way to describe it.
Jamie (27:01.404)
here.
It's a good way to describe it because they are, I think your description is great. I've actually not thought of it that way, which is that they are poisoning society by their waste extrament. Like the fact that they exist poisons the rest of us. And again, the proof is in the documentary. It is a high budget documentary. It's Louis Theroux. He's one of the greats of documentary storytelling, telling a story about something that's fairly banal on the internet because it just is. But the fact that has subject hood makes it part of our life. And now we have to deal with it. We're talking about it right now.
It means that parents all over the country are dealing with it right now. And it becomes a conversation. The downside is Louis Theroux doesn't give us any tool set at the end of it to be like, all right, so now you know, that's cool. Congrats. Now you know about it. But we don't have a plunger for you. There's no way to push this back down the sink. There's no way to throw it out. There's no truck that's going to come by and pick it up. It just is part of your life. It is what it is. And so that is kind of like very
kind of upsetting when you think of it. So now it's on the onus of the parents, like the parents and the guardians and the people to kind of like figure out the tool set. And the end of my book would have been like four chapters on what to do about it. It would have been about how do we handle the Manosphere? What do we do to counteract it or like counter program it for the very least? One part, the most accessible is counter programming like this, the ability to talk about it in a sober way and discuss it in a way that
helps other people see it and have a language for it. Because like, even you and I, like in all of our years, we still struggle with words to describe this specific moment. So now what do parents do? So the second thing is like, now that we know that young men are exposed to this content, and this content is fairly attractive, because it does lead to the aspirational self, very simple tools to become slightly more what is that like?
Jamie (29:02.878)
slightly more, what is the term that, what was the term that, this is gonna have to be cut out, what was the term that Clivicular used? Oh, he ascended, that's it. He used the term like, he has, these tools allow these young men to ascend, that's the term they use. But like when they use that term, they're using an incel language that is the ascension above women. So they don't really, it's not really even about the success model. In other words, it's the same thing.
the same model for young men that's always been there, which is like small gains, big results. And if you could achieve one thing, you could achieve other things. And that's why a lot of people when they're stressed out will do like a craft or a hobby or like cut the grass is because you get to see something get done. You know, a lot of what we do in our life is a struggle. It's not meant to be successful instantly. It's not supposed to be an outcome. This is the problem I have with like looks maxxing.
and any of these like new Manosphere types that are using a lot of steroids and drugs because they're taking shortcuts. They're getting to the ascension, so to speak, faster by these things, but they're guided by the older Manosphere community. And when you interact with a young man, a young man or young woman who's like aspiring and they find themselves disenfranchised, they turn towards these shortcuts rather than find out that the struggle is the path. You know, it's not the destination, but how do you know that as a young person?
A lot of the tools that aren't explained in this is one, the counter programming. Two is that there is still social good opportunities that people can participate in. They could still do things that in the end resemble forms of mutual aid or help. And then the third one is like, there are skills that aren't inside of the screen. Like you can make, you can learn to cook. Like there's like, you can learn just small skills, small, small skills that are wildly beneficial later in your life.
that I think the most common criticism I hear when I hear anything about the Manosphere or incel behavior is like, if you really like if their goal in the end is to get women, which honestly it isn't, we know it's a disguise for disliking women. But if the goal is that learning how to cook is a good skill, like learning how to wash dishes, you know, there's small, small amount of things that could be enforced as a positive experience for a lot of people, not just gendered on men. These things are left out because we're talking about a documentary.
Jamie (31:25.256)
We're talking about something that explains this. The problem then that comes from this that I felt through it. And again, I thought this was a good documentary for its audience, not for me, is that it creates another version of uplift that they could do. Now they have a way of getting onto a bigger production and so forth. No matter how much at the end you get to see these men literally fall apart. Like these guys have, they're literally, it's amazing that they're role models to these guys because they're soft. Like you and I, when we were talking on.
on their voice chats, these men, fall apart at the first pushback. They also do something really strange that people don't often do, which is they are always on the defense. They are always like projecting their insecurities on everyone else. So it's easy to detect. And so I think that's like a parental tool or like a tool from a guardian or teacher is to detect the way in which confidence allows you to not have to act on the defense or project your fears onto other people.
That tool set is really the biggest way to combat the Manosphere because that's what's missing from all of these men is it doesn't seem like anyone gave them the tools for that level of dealing with reality.
Jamie (32:40.36)
You're saying a lot.
Destinee Day (32:40.576)
It happens. I'm trying not to like, it's either like a deep sighs or just complete rage. But you know, that was where I think the critique of Louis Theroux being soft on this. How else do you want him to approach it? But also it was the most effective way to approach it because just a soft push on these guys.
foundational pillars of being, they crumbled so quick to the point where like they would dismiss the women immediately. They stopped being able to make eye contact. Their whole grandiose, confident thing crumbled. The first guy he talks to, right? He spends the whole day with a guy. The next day, that guy won't even be around him, calls in like his buddy. He has to spend the whole day with his buddy and then...
pushes off the yacht party. I've got so many more important things to do. It's like, please. I expect that from a junior high kid.
Jamie (33:48.99)
Mm-hmm.
Destinee Day (33:51.51)
And it's very much that, what do they call it when you get stuck where you are? Like the first...
It's like when you get your first real big moment in your life and then it's stuck there. whatever, wherever they were when they first consumed that content, that's where they stayed. And then it's raising this several generations now of men that are adolescents. And then if you want to look at women's real problem with men as of lately, it's that
Jamie (34:06.748)
out pigeon hole. Yeah.
Jamie (34:25.576)
Yeah.
Destinee Day (34:32.046)
they cannot find a man that is a partner for them because they're all still in junior high. So then yeah, you know what I mean? It becomes increasingly difficult to find a partner because I need someone to help me take out the trash and do the dishes and help me walk the dog. need someone, women are just asked for basic things like that and they're looking at a generation of men that are
Jamie (34:38.992)
Yeah. No, you're right. Yeah.
Jamie (34:55.986)
Yeah.
Destinee Day (35:02.315)
still 15 years old.
Jamie (35:03.974)
Yeah, this is they're emotionally and physically stunted. They don't they focus on the parts of their body that are visible, not the strength, you know, and that's another fascinating part. Like, there was an viral clip that went viral last week about Clavicular getting tagged in wrestling. And it always reminds me like, he got knocked over and like, easily taken down. And it's because he focuses on the aesthetic versions of muscle, he's the body building type, whereas the actual strength training doesn't look much like that at all. And
Emotionally, you're right, because it's like there's a funny online theory right now that I refer to often, which is the everyone is 12 theory. And it's like, man, I want to be like on on YouTube videos and do this. Of course you do, little buddy, because you're 12, you know. So it's there's this this and I can't imagine what it's like for women or young women or anybody to interact with men who are emotionally and physically stunted like this. Because there is sort of like this class, it's same way that boomers have this classical
Destinee Day (35:45.966)
Yeah.
Jamie (36:00.511)
interpretation of the new media type of thing is like, they're just YouTubers, they're on the internet. But it's the same thing as like, there's a classical version of what is a caretaker gender wise to not just to fall into traditional roles, but just the fact that traditional roles once existed. And to be let down in that way to know that these men are like watching these clips, and it's all about the clips, and aspiring to clips doesn't seem like it's a very valuable way of like
figuring out even how to have a conversation with somebody, no less like expect them to do very basic chores around the house. So I understand that. like, might, you know, we're not, this isn't the episode for this, but my college experience when I like fell down these rabbit holes and like became somebody who was like, like treated people poorly. You know, I was a manipulator because of the red pill atmosphere that was around it. Like I was fortunate enough to find out that that was
had it was a dead end. It doesn't lead anywhere. It literally is a you could feel it stunting you. But I think the distractions that come from the screen and this constant reinforcement that these men keep giving these young men tells them that don't worry about it because the next step is just around the corner. And really, they're just as I explained to everybody, the Manosphere, what it promotes to young men of how to take advantage of women, they don't do that to women. They do that to other men.
The Manosphere is about the male gaze. It is about manipulation of young men using the tactics they say they're gonna use on women, but they use them solely on the men around them. And I cannot imagine what that feels to be a young woman and watch that.
Destinee Day (37:48.366)
I just know I was so grateful not to to find my spouse before dating apps were a thing and to meet him in a real world environment and not have to deal with any of that.
Jamie (38:04.102)
Yeah, to be clear dating apps, there's nothing wrong with dating apps, but I understand what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.
Destinee Day (38:06.496)
They're not, but I met him. We saw each other in person, had a real conversation where we made eye contact and then decided this was for each other.
But I see the youth and I see the struggles you and I have both had students that like we had to work together to kind of do some deprogramming on. And that is terrible.
Jamie (38:36.178)
And it's only now scaled up. When you and I were interacting with these students in the 2010s, we had a lot of tools that are to talk about. think that post pandemic, well, it's not still pandemic, like post fully online pandemic, fully remote world where everyone was on the internet all at once, there was no tool set to unpack that post event. And now we're like, basically, like you said, like we don't.
The toilets are clogged. There is no way to get rid of this excrement. And now we're filled with it. And it keeps on piling up. And we as a society should not be blaming women to have to for them to clean it up. It is not a woman's responsibility to clean this up. This is on men. This is what this is a project for men to get a handle on. And for every time I read one of these articles like until society or women do, I'm like, shut up. Like that is not it. Like this is you cannot.
by continuing to place the blame on anyone other than these men. We're just consistently giving them the keys to scale this outward. the shape is constantly like a pyramid over and over again. And it seems, could be a scheme.
Jamie (39:50.866)
So yeah, those are my thoughts on this. I just, did, like I said, like just to wrap this up a bit is that I did find the documentary good. I thought it was well-produced and very illuminating. I just believe that we need to have the conversation that keeps on going. And this isn't just my study because of my past history or my lore that's attached to it, but because as an internet culture person, if you ignore this,
part of internet culture, you are doing a disservice to everyone that uses the internet and anyone who's curious about how we could talk about the internet.
Destinee Day (40:23.406)
I agree. I also think to a certain point all of this is about becoming more media literate understanding how to discern that information and If it makes you uncomfort like part of literacy is being uncomfortable Because that being uncomfortable means that you've identified a value or a wall of some sort so that uncomfortability is something that is essential to
understanding what's going on.
Jamie (40:54.206)
I 100 % agree. think media literacy gives us the ability to talk about uncomfortable things. And if your first reaction to discomfort is avoidance, it's not gonna do it. You're 100 % right. This is about media literacy and literacies, just literacies, because to be able to read properly, and it's not just like text translating into images in your mind. It's like to read it contextually and to understand it in the world that we live in.
and to make sure that other people feel like they have agency and choice, literacy has to be increased. And it's a responsibility of really all of us. It's a collective responsibility.
Destinee Day (41:31.33)
Yeah, I agree. Okay, we good? We done?
Jamie (41:35.999)
Yeah.